Of Time Loops and Inconsistencies of Characterization

[stellahibernis]

For starters, I'm definitely one who considers canon to be just what's in the actual work, and whatever creators say outside of it negligible, to be taken into account if I like it and discarded if I don't (thanks for the very thorough training in that, JKR). Not that I don’t discard canon also when I feel like it, but if I say something is canon compliant, previous is what I mean. Hence, stuff that the creators say about Endgame is all in the discard pile when it comes to writing fic (I think, I haven't gone looking at the interviews, most I've gotten from headlines and fan discussion/reactions, and so far nothing they’ve said has been stuff I’ll want to include).

 

I have to say though, I find this whole thing a headscratcher, first because the directors and writers have such conflicting opinions of what happened with Steve at the end and how time travel in the movie works. They've obviously worked very tightly together for years, how can they be on such different pages? (Cue tinhatting about it being deliberate obfuscation so they can later decide either way.) Secondly comes the point of this post, which is the inconsistency it puts into Steve's characterization, if it indeed is a rigid time loop rather than a multiverse as the writers posit. The more I think about it, the more it feels like the writers had this clever (not actually that clever) idea, and when people question it (for good reason!) they double down on it even when it throws away the core part of their previously established characterization of Steve Rogers.

 

If we look at the three Cap movies, they all have the same writers, and a very consistent characterization of Steve. I recently came across a comment I made on a tumblr post pre-Infinity War, in which I said that even though the upcoming two Avengers movies looked like they were so crammed with stuff that there was a potential for it to be an unholy mess, one thing I wasn’t worried about was Steve’s characterization. (That one aged well :D) Back then, it was a reasonable expectation, which now leaves me confused because the insistence of a time loop means the Steve they’re talking about is a completely different one compared to the one we got to know in the Cap trilogy.

 

A lot of my favorite moments for Steve have been about his desire to act when he sees something that he considers wrong. He wants to sign up for the war because he doesn’t like bullies. He urges SHIELD agents to choose to do the right thing, not the safe thing, and shows an example. In Civil War he says to Tony, “If I see a situation pointed south, I can't ignore it.” He keeps pointing out he can do it all day.

 

And I’m supposed to believe he went back in time, knowing that Bucky suffered all those decades, knowing that Hydra was hiding in SHIELD, and did nothing? That’s not the Steve Rogers we got to know in the other movies. He wouldn’t stay silent just to preserve the timeline, he’d say it’s a pretty fucked up timeline and he’d try to fix things he could. Obviously there’s never a guarantee of things becoming better overall as a result, but it’s not a reason not to act.

 

If there was a time loop, and you inserted a Steve who knew about Hydra and Bucky in the past, you’d end up having a different present, because Steve would act. Or you’d have to ignore the very core of a character just to keep it from breaking into a paradox. Or you’d have to scrap the idea of a time loop and have a multiverse instead, one that accommodates for Steve taking action.

 

I know which route I’m going to take when writing fic.

Comments

[boogiewoogiebuglegal]

I subscribe to the multiverse theory as well myself (to the extend that I include Endgame in my fanfic canon which is to say I don't. :D) I simply cannot picture a Steve going back in time who manages to ignore both the systematic brutalization of his best friend and the growth of Hydra within SHIELD. That's....really not him. At all. Ever.

[stellahibernis]

Yeah, for that to happen we'd need to ignore the literal defining characteristic of Steve, and we'd end up with a completely different (and very unpleasant) person. Better to just cherry pick the plot, which of course is our prerogative as ficcers :D

[pushdragon]

I fully endorse all your comments.

In my headcanon, Steve maybe thinks he can slip into this anonymous low-key life in the past, but without really thinking it through. It takes him maybe a day to realise that he'd have to live every day knowing Bucky is in captivity being tortured and broken, and like you say, how could he possibly live with that? Every story I can imagine ends up with him running a crazy solo mission into some Hydra stronghold to get Bucky out.

So there can't be a single time loop that ends with Bucky not being rescued. But if it's a multi verse, how is old Steve there in the final scene? Does he transition back from his alternative timeline?

Oh hang on. What if there's a reason Steve can't save Bucky? Like he gets a glimpse of how, in an alternative timeline, if Bucky doesn't assassinate him, Howard Stark Sr creates a race of super soldiers who destroy the civilised world. So he has to endure the torment of not acting. Unpleasant but not out of character at least.

Thanks for the food for thought!

[stellahibernis]

I mean, even Endgame the movie told us it's a multiverse, after they popped into 2012 Loki escaped with the Tesseract even though we know in their original timeline Loki was taken to Asgard. Likewise Hydra thinks Steve is one of them, and with that CATWS couldn't have happened as it did, because they would have tried to make a connection at some point and Steve would have been hell of a suspicious.

Hence, if it's a multiverse, Steve will have to somehow shift back to his original timeline to get to the movie ending, using the bracelet or something else, he can't get there just by aging. Basically it's a big mess that doesn't hold up if you point any logic at it.

And even if Steve got a glimpse of Howard doing something bad if he's not killed, then it's still not necessary to leave Bucky, because Howard's actions aren't directly reliant on Bucky. Steve can try and prevent Howard some other way. He can just sit in his lab 24/7 and nag him until he gives up, for example:D. To leave Bucky suffering there would need to be something really specific and directly connected to him being the winter soldier, something greater good that couldn't happen otherwise, and I can't see what that would be.

Obviously with multiverse, going to a different timeline and changing things means there's no guarantee of consequences, and down the line something bad can happen, but that's same as life in general. You just have to do the best you believe is possible with the information you have.

[pushdragon]

Having seen Endgame only once, I came away with a general feeling it wouldn't stand up to logical analysis, and thank you for confirming that's true!

My alternative explanation is only to say that *anything* is better than a world where Steve chooses to leave Bucky to suffer. A "can't change the timeline or worse things happen" scenario would at least preserve Steve's integrity. (Or better yet, not to go back in time at all, if only we could change the movie.)

[spikedluv]

Likewise Hydra thinks Steve is one of them, and with that CATWS couldn't have happened as it did, because they would have tried to make a connection at some point and Steve would have been hell of a suspicious.

OMG! I never thought of that!!!! You're absolutely right!

[spikedluv]

I’m supposed to believe he went back in time, knowing that Bucky suffered all those decades, knowing that Hydra was hiding in SHIELD, and did nothing?

This is exactly my problem! I mean, I know why they did it - they needed to get rid of Chris Evans/Steve Rogers without screwing up the rest of the shows/movies they have in pipeline - and I really don't have anything against Steve/Peggy (I adore Peggy, I just prefer my Steve with a side of Bucky sauce), but it's just so. Frelling. Unbelievable!

My canon will always be that Steve went back to save Bucky. Because Steve ALWAYS goes back to save Bucky. (And also that other!Steve from The Avengers will also now go back and save Bucky.)

[stellahibernis]

It's just really hard to wrap my head around the things they say, because everything we hear is just so not Steve, and after they managed to keep his characterization so consistent over cap trilogy. These days it feels like every new thing is just so outrageous that I shrug and move on, I'm over it and pretty zen now that I've just decided to ignore all the bullshit:D